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July 10, 2009

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Bruce

Have you read Latour's talks on religion? (They are on his website.) He is, apparently, a Catholic.

willy

Very stimulating and hopeful...up to a point.

Your key characterization of 'theistic'/God would be "the absence of any original unity"? ...or more specifically, though rather implicitly it seems to me, the absence of any 'undivided/multiple' original unity. And so you elaborate much of intriguing value re the irreducible multiplicity.

And yet, our God, _the_ God, does not fit your characterization. In that many of 'our traditions' are afflicted with your characterization, your work grants something fresh and hopeful. To the extent that your own alternative falls short of orthodoxy, there would be a danger...yet another ontological heresy?

Adam Miller

Bruce, thanks for the note. I'm aware of them, but haven't had a chance to look at them. Are you familiar with them?

Adam Miller

Willy,

I appreciate the comment. You're right that this "God" - or, at least, this conception of a nontheistic grace - falls short of orthodoxy.

A couple of responses:

1. I've adopted a nontheistic ontology here as an experimental framework. I want to see what grace can/may look like in such a framework. The results, I think, even if ultimately incompatible with orthodoxy, will likely also benefit an orthodox or theistic understanding of grace.

2. It is true, in general, though, that I'm not especially concerned about orthodoxy for orthodoxy's sake.

3. It seems to me that question of God's passibility (or impassibility) is a central issue that, if we are to address it, will force us to have a loose sense of orthodoxy. The problem of God's passibility is a very old problem - perhaps one of the oldest problems in Christian thought - and I think its central to the question of grace.

More soon.

brad

what? a non-theistic ontology? i'm looking forward to your non-theistic soteriology too, albeit experimental. what is your impetus behind such experiments?

Adam Miller

Brad,

Good question. The impetus (apart from sheer curiosity) is twofold. Quoting myself from an earlier post:

"First, in light of contemporary science, we have good reason to take seriously the claim that complex, dynamic, material systems are capable of producing extremely rich patterns of self-organization without the superaddition of any higher, designing, goal-oriented intelligence. My aim is to see what happens to our conception of grace if we experimentally adopt a non-theistic ontology that takes seriously such non-directed self-organization as fundamental (rather than incidental) to the way things are.

"Second, and more importantly, it seems to me that a great deal of valuable work has been done in Continental thought (from Nietzsche to Heidegger to Derrida to Marion) to show that we may have good reason to be suspicious about the spiritual viability of some of the theoretical, ontological, and political baggage woven deep into the fabric of theistic ontologies."

Does that help?

willy

Adam, thanks for your reply. Of course 'we' are not interested in orthodoxy as a museum piece. How shall we then talk about 'truth', 'the way it is', 'reality', knowing the true and living God, to quote Paul, the truth that sets us free, true life, etc. All such terms are problematic, and we belong to an historical moment that prides itself on wanting to get beyond 'just terms', just traditions, lifeless religion, etc. Amen.

But full play for diversity (within trinitarian unity...as itself even understood in terms of diversity), and the passability of (the triune) God has been and is being challenged and explored in many ways by many folk in many traditions, many of them quite orthodox, in a somewhat standard historical sense.

And I welcome that...as well as your 'experiment'. Nonetheless, if I had the time (or if someone else might), it would not be too difficult to show how your experiment presupposes and uses a notion of unity at least equally ultimate with your notion of multiplicity. Explicating that notion of unity would be fun, but we'd all have to be in the right mood. ;-) And with even more time, I'd like to show that your "nontheistic ontology" is actually neither. Such could be one benefit of your experiment. But that might require a bit more than "the right mood."

Regardless, I am also rather sure that your experiment will indeed benefit an orthodox or theistic understanding of grace. (see p.s. comment #2 below)

courage...and all the grace you may need to complete your project,

willy

p.s. just a comment or two re your reply to Brad:

1. re "complex, dynamic, material systems are capable of producing extremely rich patterns of self-organization without the superaddition of any higher, designing, goal-oriented intelligence"

QUITE right; it's the 'superaddition' which is problematic...such need not be 'superadded' to be present and operative, even constitutive of 'matter' per se.

2. re "we may have good reason to be suspicious about the spiritual viability of some of the theoretical, ontological, and political baggage woven deep into the fabric of theistic ontologies."

I'D SAY, even more strongly, "we DO have..." ...and your experiment will help to ferret out such, and hopefully open up better alternatives.

Adam Miller

Brad, thanks for the additional comments. Hopefully we'll be able to work through some of these issues as I continue to spool things out. I think there's more than a pinch of truth to the qualifications you've offered above.

Adam Miller

Sorry, Willy (and Brad)! My previous comment was meant as reply to Willy's most recent comment.

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