« God in the Gallery: A Symposium | Main | Race: Is the White Face of Christ the Proper Normative Standard? »

July 14, 2009

TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00d8341d9f5853ef01157204e3a2970b

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference What are we doing again? And why?:

Comments

geoffrey holsclaw

hey brad...you actually gonna hold us to our words? I love it. Brilliant.

and for those working at the intersection of the church and university it seems we all begin as "young, pompous, overly critical aspiring academics" (i'm probably still there). but we don't live at that intersection without having some sort of edge, right?

geoffrey holsclaw

and i meant all that in a good...just want to be clear as inflections and nuance get lost in these comments.

Jeremy

Is Driscoll to be featured as one of the high-profile theorists that will be covered?

James K.A. Smith

Thanks for the prompt, Brad. This is one of the reasons we wanted to recruit a new set of team members. I would say that I've become comfortable with churchandpomo.org trying to do two things: On the one hand, like the book series, we really want to reach beyond the circle of specialists and speak to practitioners, students, and others. On the other hand, the site has also become a bit of a home for discussions in "continental philosophy of religion"--and I'm OK with that as long as we don't lose the project you're reminding us of here.

But if you ever quote Driscoll positively again, you'll be banned from any future posting.

I'm only sort of kidding. Well, no I'm entirely kidding: we're not censoring. But I can't imagine Driscoll ever being helpful. I'm not surprised that Driscoll can only consider "the local church." This is because these "new Calvinists" know pretty much nothing of "Reformed" ecclesiology.

Jeremy

Ok, glad to know someone else was concerned that Driscoll was being quoted on ecclesiology. Given the fact that he represents so much of what is wrong with the misogynistic and pseudo-masculine American gospel, I was just hoping he would not be used too much in the future. Also, I saw a funny video of him claiming God was male because Jesus was male, just absurd.

brad

See...now we have the potential for fruitful conversation! Please fill me in on "Reformed" ecclesiology and how Driscoll falls short. [not sarcasm] PS. I can't believe this reduced to a conversation on Driscoll :(

James K.A. Smith

Like you, Brad, I don't want this to devolve into a discussion of Driscoll (he doesn't deserve it). Let me sum up part of the problem in just one word: "non-denominational." Anyone who thinks they're Reformed but is part of a "non-denominational" group, and thus not accountable to a classis and synod, knows nothing of Reformed ecclesiology.

brad

What readings do you suggest on the relationship between denominationalism, ecclesiology and modernity?

James K.A. Smith

I don't have any particular readings that come to mind. Book IV of Calvin's Institutes perhaps. The general ethos is the Reformation's suspicion of human fallenness, and hence an aversion to the concentration of power in the hands of one or in structures that lack accountability. (I note this despite my own penchant for episcopal/fascist structures!) So it is pretty universal in Reformed ecclesiology that there are nested levels of plurality and accountability: a local congregation is governed by a consistory, a plural board of elders; congregations in a region meet within a classis; and classes participate in and are governed by a national synod (the names for these levels are different within different sectors of Reformed-dom).

A non-denominational congregation is, against this standard, a private shop, a rogue congregation. Now, I would also concede that the Reformation unleashed forces that could logically end in this proliferation of non-denominational "ministries." But I consider that to be sort of the Frankenstein-ish outcome of the Reformation and perhaps not endemic to its spirit as an Augustinian renewal movement within the church catholic.

geoffrey holsclaw

perhaps driscoll is off topic, but perhaps not when part of the purpose of this site concerns the "church" and therefore how we use that concept (use in the Wittgensteinian sense).

Two things from Dave Fitch, and other contributor here.

The first is actually someone's comment making a distinction between reformed theology and neo-reformed, which is usually neo-puritan.

http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/the-gospel-coalition-and-post-christendom-will-it-be-a-coalition-or-expedition-some-reflections-and-concerns/#comment-6387.

The second is a post of his on the new reformed.

http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/why-the-neo-radical-young-and-restless-reformed-is-not-the-way-forward/

brad

As Geoff pointed out, on a website about "the church" and culture, we need at least to work through what the church is. It is absurd to think one cannot be both biblical (that is, reformed) and non-denominational. To be clear, then, I am working with Driscoll's definition of the church. I work for Jesus and His Bride, not some dying denomination. We always need more lines in the sand, right?

James K.A. Smith

Who the hell vetted our new contributors?! ;-)

Yes, we need to think through what the church is. That doesn't require that I have to head down the dead-end of non-denominational megachurches. And I'm not using "Reformed" in the weak sense you do here, Brad (as when you suggest that "reformed" is just a synonym for "biblical;" it's not).

If we're drawing lines in the sand, I just want to be clear that I think non-denominationalism is the bane of the church, a particularly modern (and American) rendition of Christianity as free-markets (though this clearly "sells" around the globe, too). It's usually connected to some kind of naive primitivism about "New Testament church principles" and comforts itself by extolling "biblical" principles.

Not that there's anything wrong with that!

rodney neill

6) write in the vernacular, (7) so that we are understandable to a non-specialist audience, (8) and, in the end, contribute something of value to and for the Church, (9) expressed through concrete faith and practice

Brad

I welcome your emphasis on these points - as a non-specialist I appreciate contributors who try to write in the venacular so I can try to understand what is being said....sentences like 'we need to reread hegel in order to fully understand derrida' do not convey a lot to me!

Rodney

geoffrey holsclaw

I could be wrong, but the reaction was probably more forcused at Driscoll himself rather than just the definition you quoted. For the most part he represents the more reactionary instances of the church within postmodernity in retrenchment via doctrinal purity and authority. This is confirmed in his association/affiliation with "The Gospel Coalition". (I can't help it because we are good friends and co-pastors, but here is yet again a post by Dave Fitch regarding this: http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/the-gospel-coalition-and-post-christendom-will-it-be-a-coalition-or-expedition-some-reflections-and-concerns/.

Anyway, I'm not against definitions of the church, and often on this site I argue against those who refuge any kind of definition at all and reduce the church to any action that is subversive and mildly linked to jesus.

So about his definition:
“a community of regenerated believers who confess Jesus Christ as Lord. In obedience to Scripture they organize under qualified leadership, gather regularly for preaching and worship, observe the biblical sacraments of baptism and Communion, are unified by the Spirit, are disciplined for holiness, and scatter to fulfill the Great Commandment and the Great Commission as missionaries to the world for God’s glory and their joy”.

I quite like the elements linked between "gather" and "scatter", mostly because I'm a sucker for liturgical language and because indeed it is very useful by centering on the gathering in which we worship the risen Lord. Often the movements of gathering/scattering are lost in missional/emerging discussion in favor of seeking Jesus in the face of others via social action or something like that (which is true but can't be separated from discerning Christ in the Word and Table.

The phrase "community of regenerate believers" seems very odd to me, as if they were trying to both emphasize and not emphasize individualism and personal regeneration. I would like to think this is a dialectical tension between the communal and individual, but "In obedience to Scripture they organize" seems to tilt this toward an understand of the church as an association of believers who 'organize' around the distribution of goods. Also the "in obedience to Scripture" part isn't so bad on the face of it, but in a non-denominational setting and an understanding/hermeneutic of Scripture as perspicuous and transparent (I don't think I'm assuming too much on their part) this becomes problematic. Lastly, the understanding of "for God's glory and their joy" is vintage Westminster Catechism (and there could be worse), but the formulation of God's sovereignty which stands behind it, and the metaphysical assumptions within it are again problematic.

so in summary, I find part of it helpful and part of it unhelpful, but the part that is unhelpful as read through the context of those speaking it I find very unhelpful and often harmful. But you might not share that same context (or you may, I don't know) so you might give a different gloss to those parts to which I object. I would love to hear that in the future.

Ben

Brad, I find this too paranoid:

"But our purpose is not to use unnecessarily big words, engage in fruitless abstraction, impress readers with one’s knowledge of 'high-profile theorists,' or mere intellectual masturbation."

Is this another attempt, in the name of a collusion between a piously disciplined, overly pragmatic and marketing driven mindset, to police out the joy and pleasure of a faith seeking understanding through intellectually communing with the profundity of reality? What about, instead of fearfully running from theory, calling people to think of theory otherwise than in modern terms of an austere, disenchanted analysis and abstraction? What about pursuing intellectual discussion as a festive exchange of ideas through a creative array of theoretical and contemplative discourses that seek not only to critically engage but also charm and be charmed by, in ever greater ways, God's awesome gift of existence (like much of the theologians in the early and medieval church as well as in this blog)? Or is this intellectual endeavor just more impotent masturbation when it should be following instead the cult of practical efficiency and virility and actually fucking things base-like?

Sure, arrogance and wasteful expenditure (in certain forms) within intellectual discourse need to be checked (and theory and practice need to be integrated), but the bigger problem is the great simplification of reality and the dulling of rigorous thought to accommodate the marketing demands of modern mass culture as well as protestant evangelicalism's complicity.

This blog has so far provided a site for Christian thought that has fostered freely creative and critical thinking beyond the commodification of Christianity, so let's not now surrender this vocation to a call towards Americanized christianity.

brad

You're right Ben. You convinced me.

Barry R

"But our purpose is not to use unnecessarily big words, engage in fruitless abstraction, impress readers with one’s knowledge of 'high-profile theorists,' or mere intellectual masturbation."

I've never read anyone on this site who does this. The very suggestion is absurd.

On the other hand, perhaps Brad is using hyperbole (!). If so, it's pretty obvious what he means, and it's a fair point, that should be noted by any academically minded individual seeking to communicate to non-academics.

rodney neill

If the website is to be an intellectual discourse of specialists from a highly academic background only then using jargonised/technical language is appropriate as a shorthand for communicating complex ideas - such forums are necessary and I do not wish to play the anti-intellectual card.

However please redefine the websites purpose to reflect this and remove these points 6) write in the vernacular, (7) so that we are understandable to a non-specialist audience

Rodney

Carl Raschke

After spending my winter sabbatical visiting and lecturing to various postmodern Christian groups in Continental Europe, from Amsterdam to Prague, I came back with some rather striking insights. In America, even in pomo circles, we endlessly go back and forth about theory and practice, with the "practitioners" tirelessly chastizing academics for their allegedly jargonistic philosophy and "theology", while championing some sort of utopian communalism of "plain folk." This is a unique American pathology that has been observed and commented on for generations (cf. Hofstadter's ANTI-INTELLECTUALISM IN AMERICA) which goes back more than one generation.

In Europe they respect theologians, and even strive to incorporate their thinking in various forms of experimental practice. This is why I am convinced, and I believe Andrew Jones would back me up on this, that the future of postmodern Christianity belongs to "dead, secular" Europe, not America. Right now pomo Christianity is starting really to take off in the German-speaking countries, and when that happens, watch out. There's a big conference this fall, for example, in Karlsruhe, Germany. And many of these communities are really starting to grow.

Alan Hirsch meets Juergen Moltmann meets Heidegger meets Derrida. Note I didn't mention Mark Driscoll.

brad

Carl: That sounds like an amazing winter in Europe! And I doubt that anyone would disagree that there is a unique rift between Christian practitioners and academics in the United States. Mark Noll (now at Notre Dame) investigated anti-intellectualism particularly as it applies to American evangelicals in "The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind" (1995). For the record, though, I did not intend my post to demean or diminish the life's work of academic philosophers or theologians. In fact, I consider part of my project to link the two in fruitful ways.

geoffrey holsclaw

Dr. Raschke,

If we were going to bring Hirsch into this could he rather meet J.B. Metz meets Wittgenstein meets Lacan? Wonder if the future of missional theology must pass through Moltmann-Hiedegger-Derrida? isn't this merely giving us a death of god redux and/or a religion w/o religion?

I'm not saying that is what you are up to, just that those are the typical moves...

Justin

To Ben's paranoia:

I too lament over the anti-intellectual bent in the US church...a cultural and epistemological jet-lag, if you will. And like those who frequent the site, I long to see the body as a whole understand the zeitgeist our culture so it can truly engage it.

YET, as a friend who has lengthy and nuanced talks with Brad about 'these' matters, let me clarify that this post was NOT "another attempt, in the name of a collusion between a piously disciplined, overly pragmatic and marketing driven mindset, to police out the joy and pleasure of a faith seeking understanding through intellectually communing with the profundity of reality".

The vantage point isn't that we need to sacrifice intellectual rigor to be 'practical' and 'productive'(and sadly many hold that view)...rather make sure that our rigor is fruitful and missional, to be clear and accessible in our insights.

I understood the post as not an either/or argument, but rather a both/and argument.

ben

Dr. Raschke and Geoff - how about meeting Balthasar meets Adorno meets Agamben? Or does meeting Balthasar bring one through too much thick pageantry for the likes of a Wittgensteinian or Heideggerian (not that either of you are strict followers of these in any sense)?

Justin - you sound like a good friend. Keep up the good work.

geoffrey holsclaw

Ben, I can dig some von B. with the double 'A's.

you should check out d. stephen long's new "Speaking of God" where he brings together Barth, von Balthasar, Wittgenstein, and of course...Aquinas.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

about conversation

  • ...coordinated by
    eric austin lee,
    geoffrey holsclaw,
    james k.a. smith

    ...offering discussions of high-profile theorists in postmodern theory and contemporary theology, for a non-specialist audience that is interested in the impact of postmodern theory for the faith and practice of the church.

    more on the conversation
    more on the series

    link to us

    ...posts here will range from brief “airing of ideas” and the “trying on” of particular theories or critical positions, to longer arguments or analyses soliciting critical responses from readers, all with an eye toward the actual issues confronting church pastors and leaders, rather than the merely academic hair-splitting of abstract issues.

    recieve new post via email

    FeedBlitz