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September 18, 2009

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I couldn't comment on your previous post for some reason. Consider this comment a response to that.
I read your conception of grace as essentially Buddhist. But employing that formation in a theistic framework is to me equating karma with sin. It is overlooking the fact that God compels us to action (insert passages regarding sin of omission, acts of righteousness, etc.), not simply to establish a Buddhist disposition and master our sinful nature. It is this lack of divine perfection, or our deviance from living a life like Christ (i.e. driven solely by adherence God's will) that requires grace. This grace is, as you posit, immanent and prior to sin. But what of karma? Is not the universe, theistic or not, still causal? Does not this immutable metaphysical inertia demand a super-natural grace? And where could this karma go, but into the debt the Universe owes God by way of Jesus' morally perfect character (both as a pre-existent form of God and during his incarnation) undergoing a karmic load (stress, insults, whippings, crucifixion) befitting only the most depraved? I don't see the atonement as appeasing a bloodthirsty God but rather God working within the bounds of reality (karmic justice) to allow reconciliation of that reality to Himself.

Adam Miller

Jordan,

Thanks for the comments. I'll respond as I'm able below:

1. There are certainly deep resonances here with the immanence of a Buddhist approach to grace. I've reflected on them explicitly here in particular. For whatever it's worth, I probably wouldn't go so far, though, as to say that this approach is essentially Buddhist ;)

2. I think I'd say that rather than employing an immanent "formation in a theistic framework," I'm deploying a theistic grace in an immanent framework . . . in order to see what happens. I don't disagree that things may be lost. But the experiment is to see what kinds of things are lost and how essential those things are.

3. I'm very hesitant to agree that (even in a theistic framework) it is wise to define sin as a "lack of divine perfection" or as "deviance" from a divine ideal (e.g., as embodied by Christ). Not that divine ideals of perfection don't play an essential role in the constitution of our experience of sin, but that this role is much more complex and ambiguous than we may tend to think (cf., for instance, Romans 7).

4. For my part, I think that you hit the nail on the head when you ask:

"But what of karma? Is not the universe, theistic or not, still causal? Does not this immutable metaphysical inertia demand a super-natural grace?"

To me, this is a genuine (rather than rhetorical) question. In many ways, I take it to be the question.

Does this karmic, metaphysical inertia demand a supernatural grace?

Is the non-supernatural grace of what is given too poor a thing to save?

In particular, I think we need to be very sensitive to the ways in which a demand for an additional, supernatural grace may itself feed into the logic of sin that creates - in the first place - the bind of human sinfulness.

5. I'm very interested in your final sentence:

"I don't see the atonement as appeasing a bloodthirsty God but rather God working within the bounds of reality (karmic justice) to allow reconciliation of that reality to Himself."

Is your conception of "reality" here theistic or nontheistic?

Is this reality (with which God seeks to reconcile himself) a transitive, externalized effect of God's will (God being himself the sole creator and entire original, ontological source of this reality)? Or is it nontheistic in that this reality, in some sense, exists independent of and prior to God's will? Does the former require "reconciliation"? If reconciliation is required even there, then would it be different in character from God's reconciliation with a nontheistic reality?

Jordan

I don't think sin involves deviance from a divine archetype, but rather deviance from a personal divine revelation that unfolds moment by moment based on our faith. It is what convicts Paul of his thralldom to slavery. I see grace as boxing this slavery from two sides--immanently affordable (thanks to your insights here!) and available to overcome our sin after the fact.

My argument for supernatural grace is entirely metaphysical, and thus the relation to the idea is purely conceptual. Immanent, natural grace is experiential, and thus psychologically relevant. I see no theological overlap between the two, and thus supernatural grace shouldn't affect receiving natural grace. My understanding is this difference can assuage your wariness of supernatural grace hindering our reception of natural grace, which constitutes our relation to our desire-laden subjectivity and to God (again, thanks for the insight!!!).[it's more than likely I misinterpreted you here, b/c I'm unsure of what your last line in part 4 means "feed into the logic..."

My understanding of reality is both theistic and nontheistic. I see our God as the emergent Almighty, the one True God, arising "out of" Buddhist nontheistic samsara--like the Buddha reaching Nirvana, only as the Almighty God that "caps" reality that is "based" in your transcendent multiples--by purely natural processes of merit accumulation. I see this God as the personification of Love, implying both justice and mercy, and whose primary agency is derived from the willful navigation of justice and mercy, in the role of God to people in our theistic reality. In this sense, I see God as the monolithic, willful (and thus capable of both unresistant giving and entirely withholding gifts) analogy to your multiple, transcendent and irreducible immanent forces, only as residing "above" reality rather than "below" it, if you will.
I see our theistic reality as pure Creation, yet infused with sin and those "sown by the Evil One", as I see Adam's fall as forcing karmic judgement on God's otherwise perfect, and thus entirely a-karmic, creation. I further posit that this Fall grounded Creation, God's realized Vision, in samsaric reality, which then allowed incarnations of spirits who don't have God's "touch" in them, who came from the Buddhist samsaric realm within which God's reality is now situated. [To me, this makes sense of the predestination language in the Bible, reconciles Hell with a Benevolent God, and makes sense of Jesus as a Savior to All]
Consequentially, it seems to me necessary to posit a supernatural grace to save us from our samsaric location in addition to the natural grace giving us the spiritual fortitude to resist sin. I'm sure your familiar with the Buddhist requirements for samsaric (i.e. natural) heavenly realms, and given that likely less than a handful of Christians have historically met that benchmark, I find super-natural grace definitely necessary for a super-natural (eternal, with a super-natural God) heaven.

That's all remarkably unclear related to your question. I see our reality as theistic yet requiring reconciliation because of the metaphysical change of "location" resulting from the Fall. I see Created Reality forced to leave God's...mind?, as a result of sin, and thus needs karmic and moral absolution for reconciliation. I guess I see reconciliation as more complex than simply God "accepting" humanity. I don't think God wants to reconcile Buddhist, non-theistic reality, as 1) I don't think it has bounds or limitations, and 2) it's inherently loaded with impurity-->evil and good are in equal proportions (ying-yang): thus Creation.
I wanted throw in Buddhist metaphysics of mind in there as well (as a consequence of the Fall), which to me further evidences the location of Creation within samsara (or at least subjected to the rules therein) and necessitates a supernatural grace to literally lift our spirits from our current existential location and to liberate our minds from karmic law, which would otherwise have us reincarnate somewhere not pretty.
Finally, sorry for the lack of concision and long drawn out sentences! And don't hesitate to absolutely demolish everything I say here.
Thanks.

Adam Miller

Jordan,

Thanks for the additional thoughts - though this is certainly a lot to digest! There a lot of interesting ideas (from such disparate sources!) being woven together here.

I suppose my (quick) short answer response to your post might simply be to say that I'm generally more sympathetic to the those schools of Buddhism that argue that samsara and nirvana are ultimately identical. Hopefully we'll have additional opportunities to take a look at these issues with future posts.

My best,
Adam

Jordan

Please just clarify then what I'm seeing as your take-home lesson. Grace is immanent and precedes sin, therefore our faith as Christians is in the reality and efficacy of this grace to substitute/remedy any worldly desire/aversion. Thus, our work as Christians is turning more and more towards this grace, and further and further from the world, and in doing so psychologically reorient ourselves in God. So the faith/works dichotomy is abolished through the existential pursuit of grace-endowed holiness. Or, in other words, we "work out our salvation," are "transformed by the renewal of [our] mind," and are "born again" through a combination of our effort and God's immanent Grace. Thus, "supernatural" grace is superfluous, and even insidiously detrimental to the development of holiness.

"Who then can be saved?"

Adam Miller

Jordan,

The take-home lesson? I thought we were doing philosophy :)

No, this is really a good question. Let me try to clarify a couple of points.

1. Grace is immanent and precedes (and provokes) sin.

2. Grace is essentially the givenness of whatever is actually given.

3. Desire/aversion are ways of refusing the grace of what is given (i.e., we want things to be other than the way they are [desire], or we don't want things to as they are [aversion]).

4. Grace is a "remedy" for desire/aversion because it displaces both through its reception of the grace of what is actually given.

5. Thus, our work as Christians is to turn more and more toward God by turning more and more toward the world as it is given.

6. "Supernatural" grace is potentially (and spiritually) problematic insofar as it feeds into our unwillingness to accept the grace of what is already given.

7. Who then can be saved? Everyone.

My best,
Adam

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